Karaoke Forums

Exactly Paradigm.
Here is another explanation (from the net) of the differences which is pretty good. But the real kicker here demonstrates why Harrington refers to gem holders and certified KJ's as "controlled licensees" now in order to keep suing venues.


Long story short: KJ's that have agreements with PEP are providing "Sound Choice karaoke service" and they are therefore using the service mark as though they are controlled by their license with PEP. Hence the new designation by Harrington that what were once "customers" are now "controlled licensees."

Is that a surprise?

If you have a contract with them, read it again and see if it contains any mention of them monitoring the "quality of service you provide to your customers". I think you'll find it near the section that gives them the rights to inspect your business accounting records too.

What service is PEP supplying? Even if they started doing karaoke shows themselves under the Sound Choice banner, another KJ using Sound Choice tracks is not attempting to claim that they are affiliated with Sound Choice. They just use their "GOODS" the same way they use anyone else's "GOODS". I guess they might have a case if someone used ONLY Sound Choice tracks exclusively and tried to pass them selves off as a Sound Choice show. I don't think that any KJ would limit themselves to only one brand of discs in an effort to capitalize on the Sound Choice name somehow. It would be career suicide. You wouldn't be able to use any songs that came out after 2010 to remain Sound Choice only. Once again. I'll take the wait and see approach to see if Jim ever wins a case based on this far fetched scheme.

We didn't "start" doing karaoke shows ourselves. We've done karaoke shows "under the Sound Choice banner" for more than 20 years. We've also sponsored karaoke contests, under the Sound Choice mark, that directly involved providing karaoke entertainment services to venues and patrons. Since 2010, we've also had licensees—now more than 500—who provide karaoke entertainment services in connection with the Sound Choice marks. And earlier this year, we opened a wholly-owned subsidiary, Sound Choice Entertainment, LLC, that is doing business in two states and is about to add several more later this summer.

This is where Harrington purposely leaves things a little muddled. (or "obfuscates" if you want a legal term.) By using the phrase: "in connection with the Sound Choice marks." And not explaining that connection.

That "connection" is the contract these "licensees" signed that among other things, allows PEP to call them a "controlled licensee" and use them as tools for their new round of "Service Mark Lawsuits" (Or "SML'S" for short.)

Congratulations to all the PEP Minions who no longer provide karaoke entertainment to their own quality standards... because you work for and are "controlled by" your Sound Choice "licensee contract."

It's no longer a karaoke service provided by "Whiz-Bang Karaoke" that you built from scratch, but it's now "Sound Choice karaoke services" brought to you locally by Whiz-Bang Karaoke. And "they have" over 500 shows.... you're just 1 of the crowd. Like you are nothing more than a delivery service that works to their standards. They taught you everything you know, and I understand they have 8 systems in the Seattle area alone! Some local guy sets them up... but they are controlled by "Sound Choice."

What a hoot!

Well to me this is all kind of like franchise thinking.

Someone buys an SC Gem set, and has to run it according to PEP or risk losing their license. While most franchise will only let you buy and use certain products (Think McDonalds), PEP does allow the use of other brands in the KJs inventory (Like ACE hardware)

With the PRIME paid extension of this, they are looking to add more services to those KJs who participate. However anyone who has paid their dues (Certified) has some interest in PEP doing well, as it should bring a better rep to the product they are using.

Honestly what us KJs think about PEP/SC is irrelevant, if a singer likes the SC brand (and many do) they might "shop" for venues to sing at. Because PEP/SC has a standard for what is expects of those in the system (Like the french fries at McDonalds), singers would walk into a venue and know what to expect.

However, if PEP is treating things similar to a franchise, it does have a responsibility to its licencees, which includes but not limited to advertising, support and other items that would help them over the KJs not in program. Only time will tell how much or little those who are in with PEP/SC programs get.

15 U.S.C. § 1114(1):

Any person who shall, without the consent of the registrant—
(a) use in commerce any reproduction, counterfeit, copy, or colorable imitation of a registered mark in connection with the sale, offering for sale, distribution, or advertising of any goods or services on or in connection with which such use is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive [...] shall be liable in a civil action by the registrant for the remedies hereinafter provided.

Key bolded parts:

(1) without the consent of the registrant: "consent" comes in the form of a license
(2) use ... any reproduction ... of a registered mark: to apply, display, etc., a registered mark
(3) in connection with the sale, offering for sale, distribution, or advertising of any goods or services

When you have a license with us, it is our consent to use our marks, or a reproduction of them, in connection with your services.

Your explanation, as per usual, is full of editorial garbage.

So more people will just be using the tracks where the marks have been removed, I presume, since they have already lost on that one already. I'm guessing that those GEM tracks that were being shared earlier this year are good to use too, as soon as you remove those pesky marks.

I read many Pep/SC posts and I just shake my head. Why don't you guys quit trying to find loopholes and ways around Pep/SC?

Just buy their producs and shut your pie hole.

SoundChoice / Pep provides KJ's with excellent product at very good prices. (approx. 70 cents a track)

Too many people been ripping them off for years and that's what started it all with law suits.

If you're gonna use SC... then suck it up and buy the products or services and be done with it.

I did buy their products. I bought an entire series of one of their products with the agreement that if the product ever got broken or became unplayable they would replace it at no charge. I paid about $26 per disc while they were still manufacturing. Now they no longer make a product, and they will not replace scratched or broken discs, but they want me and everyone else who already bought them to pay for them again. I paid for the right to open my pie hole about a broken sales contract, extortion under threat of suit, and loss of product use, thank you very much.




That's exactly the point. Those of us who bought their product thought we WERE done with it.

_________________
~Cindy
Karaoke. Because it's a lot cheaper than therapy.

I'm sorry to hear you damaged your disks to the point of being unplayable. If i paid hat much for disks, I would be sure to handle them with more proper care.

For the record, if you still have the discs, even if they are unplayable that is sufficient proof that you bought the songs stored on a hard drive and with an audit, should be accepted.

Now I get that most people don't think there should be an audit, or at least not have to pay for it, but that is a different topic.

I'm not going to comment on it either way, there is too much arguing on this forum as it is.

With all due respect:



That purchase granted you certain rights with regard to the possession and use of that product. Those rights are predominantly oriented towards personal use. There is a very specific restriction on public performance (in the US) and that is that the venues compensate the rights holders through the PRO's. That purchase EXPLICITLY reserved certain rights for several entities from the artist, songwriter, musical composer, publisher, and eventually the karaoke producer. You simply did not purchase those rights when you obtained a CD+G product. You cannot disprove that fact.

*emphasis mine

"Ever" is not a clear definition. This seems to be interpreted as a "life-time" guaranty or replacement policy. Most consumers see lifetime warranty to mean one of three things: the owner’s lifetime or the time he or she owns the product; the lifetime of the product itself; or the lifetime of the manufacturer. Each are valid. You basically nailed it when you said "Now they no longer make a product". This particular product "lifetime" was only the time period under which it could be manufactured. The manufacturer's "lifetime" was up until the time when they could no longer manufacture the product and were no longer in possession of any of that product. Realistically, time marches on and we all know that the entire industry changed drastically with the onset of CD duplication and then was decimated by on-line file sharing. Not one single US originated CD+G producer still standing.




It would seem that many people thought they bought something that they did not. The entire licensing scheme and copyright and trademark systems were developed to benefit the creators of artistic and intellectual works. It worked for centuries because there was a practical barrier to duplication and exploitation, namely the very ability to manufacture a product. The advent of the digital age absolutely obliterated that barrier and left everyone in the chain vulnerable to rights violations (simple and complex) and devaluation of their "product".

I mean no disrespect to any individual, but I cannot see the rational in buying a product that specifies "do not duplicate" and then merely dismissing that as non-applicable.

What incentive would any manufacturer have to produce goods if there were absolutely no barrier, physical, financial or legal to duplication?

I am one of those that bought the product. I used the product for years, laying out the discs with the singers' slips on them queued for the karaoke player. I converted my SC CD+G's to MP3+G without permission (technically infringing) as soon as the capability was available to me. I obtained the relevant permission as soon as that was offered to me. I was not charged a fee for this. I also licensed a full GEM series when it became available. I've heard only rumors that the GEM series has been pirated/shared. I've seen no evidence whatsoever that this is true... no screenshot, no torrent seed, no video of a show, no photos. I can't help but wonder why.

I wont tell you to shut your pie hole. I'd rather hear what you have to say and continue the discussion...

_________________
Never the same show twice!

The "agreement" you're describing did not exist and never has.

Slep-Tone's policy was to replace any disc that became unplayable AS LONG AS that disc remained in stock. The disc itself was free, but there was a $5 shipping and handling charge.

Think about what you're saying. If we had that kind of agreement, we would be required to keep enormous stock of every disc on hand, forever, with royalties paid, all for the purpose of replacing discs that got scratched. No reasonable person would enter into that kind of obligation, and no reasonable person would expect it.

1) FACT! The Gem series was in fact made available on quite a few IRC karaoke channels but in a lower quality Not 320 bit rate.

2) Yes we all put singer slips on top of disks back in the day and they do get scratched, Given that you have converted them to mp3+G, you are only missing 1 step, and that is to simply buy a SC Certification from PEP to get you out of that "Technical infringer" zone.

3) the other member is also correct in saying that even if the disk was broke in two, that's still a purchased product and qualifies into your certification with Pep/SC. why do you worry?

Send me a list of disks you need replacing and i'll check my CDG collection to help you out if you need. I sell many disks on here for 50 cents each.

Eh, hem!

I'm still here and I've put out more songs in 6 years than PEP.... Hmmmm Maybe I should "get the band back together?"

Not true. Since the program was an exchange, there would be no royalties on such a product because it was exchanged - the KJ had to mail in the unplayable disc. If they didn't have to surrender the original, then all bets are off and yes, royalties would apply. (according to a publisher)

(Homework Jimmy boy, homework.)

party Tyme karaoke still exists, All Star karaoke still exists - both make cdg. Although it does seem All Star might have halted production - at least haven't released anything for a while.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

No proof... no fact. Your say so does not constitute evidence.



Other than displaying an utter lack of reading comprehension, this statement is simple regurgitation. Given the fact that I converted them and then obtained certification free of charge means that there is no missing step. Get it? Out of the "technical infringer zone" since 2010.



?? Apparently, you are replying to two different posts without quoting who you are replying to.



Good to know...

_________________
Never the same show twice!

For that price i'd buy every disc you have left sight unseen

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Party Tyme was owned by Sybersound and yes they were based out of Malibu, CA. I believe that their catalog has been bought out by KSF I guess you could say they "exist" but whether they're "still standing" as a US originated CD+G producer is debatable. (I would add that I am not certain that KSF took over CD+G production and that may remain a function of Sybersound)

All Star halted production some time last year... still standing?

Respectfully, Lonman... it's a stretch.

But, as a previous post indicated, I have discounted one US based CD+G publisher. Apparently Chip Staley has a catalog of licensed karaoke tracks that he publishes and distributes on CD+G media. This product is purported to be digitally watermarked in an effort to prohibit duplication. I'm uncertain as to retail availability, wholesale distribution or even the catalog's content but without any reliable sales stats I can't determine if this manufacturer is an example of the health and long term viability of the US based karaoke production.

_________________
Never the same show twice!

Haha! For that price, I'd double the price and take every single CD+G she has.

_________________
Never the same show twice!