Karaoke Forums

There is a ton of discussion and debate here about piracy and lawsuits and audits and protecting ourselves from all of the above.

I think the best way to put a dent in the piracy problem is to build a solid case against the pirate.

It seems to me there are some strong minds here that might be able to offer up some good ideas on methods to stop piracy in the karaoke industry that if noticed by those with the means it might do some good.

I'd like to start a discussion on how to go about bringing pirates down.

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KNOW THYSELF

My first idea:

I would like to see a munufacturer create a few trap songs.
By that I mean produce a couple of popular new songs, but instead of releasing them for sale, seed them into the pirate community. Then go into a venue and request one of those songs. If the KJ has it or downloads it on the fly and plays it, that would provide irrefutable proof of piracy.

Imagine the look on his face when the lawer says "that song is not due for release for another month and we have you on video playing it in a commercial venue".

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KNOW THYSELF

Looks like a good idea.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

The problem with that idea is that if it hasn't been released then it wouldn't be available to the pirates to begin with.

How about the manus using specific songs that were produced in a very limited number of disc that have not been available for many years as a trigger!

Oh I think they are already doing that!

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Virgin, perhaps you didn't get the post? The manus would find a way to let the songs slip into the pirate world, and then watch them multiply. Then the pirate would have to produce the disc or receipt. Obviously they wouldn't be able to.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

If the song/s aren't available to anyone yet, and the Manufacturers did that, wouldn't it be considered entrapment?

Even if they had released it and they put it on the net I believe it would amount to the same thing! I don't know what the civil term for entrapment is but I am sure there is one!

makes me think of "to catch a predator". they put out a fake 12 year old who never is there to trap the scum. i know it's not the same, but wonder how different it is. using fake drugs in a sting, marked bills, etc.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I've seen that show... I consider that the way they operate in that show, a good lawyer could get them off (no pun intended) on the basis of entrapment.

Seriously doubt that would intentionally happen. They may release songs specifically for 'home' use. But that would be up to the person buying it to read the TOS of the song in question to determine whether it's for home or not.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

The point being Lonnie that the pirates would not read the disclaimer. They obviously don't care now.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

A little clarification on my first idea in the form of a hypothetical:
SoundChoice purchases the rights to a new and popular song and produces the karaoke version. Prior to releasing the song for sale, they covertly (nobody knows who put it out there) upload the song to a few pirate sites.

A little time passes, and an agent of SoundChoice walks into a karaoke venue and requests to sing that song. The KJ goes online, finds the song, downloads it and calls the agent up to sing it. After the song, another agent walks up to the KJ and asks how he aquired a song from SoundChoice that has never been released for sale.

Caught red-handed pirating music. With irrefutable proof that he has in his possession a licensed work of SoundChoice (Trademark and all) that he did not pay for, his entire library is suspect (propable cause).

While SoundChoice can now prove that he is a pirate, he can not prove that SoundChoice had anything to do with how he aquired that song. Nobody can prove that SoundChoice intentionally set a trap, leaks happen all the time. It could be blamed on corporate espionage or something. That's irrelevant, the fact remains that the KJ was caught red-handed, and is now subject to complete investigation

A couple of cases like this and pirate KJs will think twice before pirating and downloading on-the-fly.

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KNOW THYSELF

Idea Number 2:

A manufacturer releases a special collection collection for download.
Within the music, the cdg or both is a unique identifier, such as a brief flash of a dot, or a misspelled word, or a unique guitar lick that can be easily identified by anyone who knows what to look for while it's playing.
As a digital file, it also can easily be tagged with hidden identifiers that identify it with a specific purchaser.

Since it's only sold as a download, they can easily keep track of who they sold it to.

By grouping visual identifiers with digital identifiers, they can walk into a venue in Florida and know if they are playing a song from the collection sold to someone in Maine.

With the digital identifier, they can download their own collection from a pirate site and know who they sold it to that put it out there.

Now we're catching the pirate, and the bigger problem, the distributor.
Red-Handed

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KNOW THYSELF

Idea number 3

How about this idea it is really very simple.

An agent walks into a show looks at the song book identifies 6 or 7 songs that they sold in a very limited release many years ago and are no longer available on the legal market (and have not been for many years) so he request the song and the KJ calls him up to sing, up pops the sound choice logo when the song starts. The agent notices that the KJ is computer based and notes that his song book contains roughly 30,000 songs or more, so the agent makes note of this.

A few weeks later Sound Choice sends a letter stating that they believe the KJ may be in violation of trademark law (having made copies of their trademark and displayed it to the public leading the public to believe that they were using authentic Sound Choice product). And to clear the matter up they would have 10 days to setup and comply with an audit or they would be named in a suit.

The KJ if he is 1:1 will gladly produce his disc and hard drives for an audit and be on his merry way. If he doesn't own the disk for what he has on his hard drive he will do one of three things.

1. he will feverishly begin buying up all the disc he can get his hands on and or start dumping songs from his hard drives and put up posters at their gigs that state they won't play any songs from Sound Choice products because Sound Choice is nothing but a bunch of mobsters who are trying to extort money from innocent KJs trying to make a living..

2. he will start screaming that Sound Choice doesn't have the right to ask for an audit because the product they sold wasn't licensed and they will dump all Sound Choice songs from their hard drives and put up posters at their gigs that state they won't play any songs from Sound Choice products because Sound Choice is nothing but a bunch of mobsters who are trying to extort money from innocent KJs trying to make a living.

3. He will settle!

Rinse and repeat for Chartbuster..............

Rinse and repeat for Pop Hits Monthly.............

Rinse and repeat for Top Hit Monthly............

Rinse and repeat for Whatever other brands these manufacturers are buying up

Now THAT is an excellent idea! Of course, to make it work in court, the mfr. will have to have licensed that song in the U.S- but the concept is simple and effective.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Ideas are supposed to get better and improve with progression not just recycling the same old weak methods.

I'm talking about concrete evidence that would hold up in court resulting in a judgement in favor of the manufacturers. And if all they really want is sales from pirates, I think ideas one and two would produce more voluntary sales and perhaps discourage pirating more than what they are doing now.

"6 or 7 songs that they sold in a very limited release many years ago and are no longer available on the legal market (and have not been for many years)" can be leagally purchased on ebay, or at a garage sale, or any number of ways - Just because a KJ has "6 or 7 songs that they sold in a very limited release many years ago and are no longer available on the legal market (and have not been for many years)" that does not prove he is a pirate. However, if they could PROVE that the person in possesion of the material and never purchased it that IS a solid case.

In my opinion, even the bogus trademark argument would carry more weight if it were applied to a piece of work that had never been released for sale, or if they could (in the case of downloaded material) PROVE that the person in possession had never purchased it.

I believe there can be a better way to do it.
Am I wrong?
Are they doing it all perfectly now?

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KNOW THYSELF

That's all well and good but the idea is to catch pirates and it is working, what needs to be fixed if it isn't broken?

There is nothing bogus about the trademark argument the Sound Choice trademark is a legal registered trademark. Why would you say it is bogus?

(opinion) Because displaying a trademark is not illegal. (opinion)

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/metaschool ... n/tm.htm#7

Actionable trademark infringement generally occurs when the trademark is used to identify a false product with a known trademark (passing off), dillution of the trademark's value, or causing confusion in connection with the trademark.

(opinion) Trademark infringement as it relates to piracy can only be applied to the distributors, and probably only under the dillution theory. (opinion)

The end user pirate KJ is certainly guilty of copyright infringement, but not trademark infringement, because the end user pirate KJ is using an exact copy of the trademark where the manufacturer intended it to be. - No harm done to the trademark by the end user pirate. As far as trademark goes the pirate could claim he is strengthening the trademark because his audience always sees the company that produced the songs they like so much.

It's the distributors that might be considered to be diluting the trademark by flooding the market with it, but still it must be proven that they have devalued the trademark in the minds of the public by doing so. I think they could make a case otherwise.

Why not go after the distributors with hard evidence of copyright infringement instead?

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KNOW THYSELF

Here again you are trying to compare apples to anvils and they aren't even close.

You are correct there is no infringement for displaying the trademark/logo and noi one is saying that there is.



OK you say the pirate is quilty of copyright infringement but not trademark!

why is he quilty of one and not the other?

I assume you mean that since he made and used a copy of the song without permission that he is quilty of copyright infringement, but you are saying that making and using a copy of the trademark Logo is "fair Use"! Why is that?

Once again the violation is making a copy and displaying it without permission (the same thing in the copyright violation). If it is not the "Logo" that the company produced and attached to it's product it is a dilution and deceptive practice.

Bananas are bananas but would it be trademark infringement if I were to run off chiquita banana stickers and slap them on a bunch of bananas offered them to the public for consumption and claimed that they were in fact chiquita bananas? I certainly think it would be regardless of the quality of the bananas.



Your arguement here is pretty much the same arguement that could be used for producing counterfit money, If you own a $20 bill there should be no violation to run off and use a few copies of it as it is an exact copy so the origional isn't devalued any!



Why not go after the distributors with hard evidence of trademark infringement instead? Oh yes that's right ..... they are!

i see where he is going here though, they are not slapping the sound choice logo on a music maestro track, it is going on a sound choice track, no deception. putting a chiquita sticker on a non chiquita banana would be deception. chiquita sticker on a chiquita banana is good, sound choice logo on a sound choice track is good. it makes sense.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens