Karaoke Forums

That's right! I wonder if Listener X could really be Speed Racer's arch nemesis Racer X?!

All kidding aside, I've been reading forums and SS postings, and comments and a few have mentioned Listener X whom I had never heard of. Apparently this alias was stirring up trouble or controversy right? I apologize up front to those of you because I wasn't caught up in reading all those old posts/threads, but you folks can really go on and on very quickly. I always get bogged down reading and thinking about individual posts. Anyway, I just looked up the member name and then typed in SS to find all comments given by them. Very interesting. I thought they were supposed to be mostly negative, and making people mad but it appears most of Listener X's posts were taken well, and as constructive criticism. The X seems to have at least a bit of a clue about quality of recordings, technical stuff, etc.

This anonymous X fellow's attempt at critiquing is very similar to my suggestion of a separate (non conflict) driven membership for reviewers rather than just subbers. Now, I'm not going to rehash that whole discussion as seen in other current threads. It may be that most people don't want SS to be serious and majority rules (or Admin rules) here. However for those seeking constructive criticism and true critique this could be good. I suppose if Admin doesn't give separate membership for critiquing this method of creating separate anonymous id's could be used. A reviewer could post something generic of their qualifications as well. People wishing to be critiqued by an 'X' group of id's could simply note that in their description. Perhaps I'll try and polish something and make it an 'X' sub' if I dare.

What do the rest of you think?

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The Truth Is Out There

Racer X was also Speed's older brother.

OMG.... I LOVED that show when I was a kid.

Now that I think about it, maybe THAT is what got me so crazy about men who drive fast cars? ( i mean, when i was younger, that is)  :D

It was either that show, or the Dukes of Hazzard. Yeah, maybe it was the Duke Boys... the "YeeHaw" made their fast driving and stuff kinda *extra* cool:)

Anyways... that's about all I have to contribute to this thread. Don't know Listener X, don't want to, don't follow his comments around. I just wanted to reminisce about Speed Racer.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Is that right Chuck? All these years I never knew. You just blew my childhood Chuck!

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The Truth Is Out There

So you're crazy about men who drive fast cars eh Charmin? I sometimes drive fast. Ok, I guess I used to drive fast ALL the time. That was then. If anyone asks now tell them, "No, Bill never speeds". Remember that line.

There was the time coming back from the chase in Ok (the day of the Jarrell F5). I was racing a Porsche down I35 from Ft Worth to Waco in my old BMW 535is. We were going (fast A). Yeah I was a bit crazy then. That got me to Waco and nearer my target quick. That BMW was great for that. Not too good off road though. But I drove it down back roads anyway -  LMAO  LMAO

Then there was the time in the Tx Panhandle with Gene. A tornadic storm front with embedded supercells was approaching our position at about 80mph. We waited for it. At the last second we bailed as Gene spotted a developing area of tornadic rotation headed right for us off the right side of my Tahoe. He said 'Punch It!' - I did. I had just tuned the Tahoe with platinum plugs. Unfortunately it has a throttle retard built in when it hit's (fast B) so I couldn't go over that. The Tahoe quickly accelerated until I was topped out as a hell of a ton of wind hit us from the right side and crap was blowing across the road. I was afraid I'd lose it, and all the telephone poles fall and I'd run across one at that speed or end up in the field. We weren't yelling Yeee Haaaww, but just yelling 'Aaaaahhhhhhhhh!'. Fortunately then we broke free. We later found that 30 telephone poles had been busted on that road from where the thing crossed.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

[Note: This message has been edited to protect the innocent.]

Go Speed Racer, Go Speed Racer, Go Speed Racer GO!!!!!!

Bill

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The Truth Is Out There

Actually, X was fairly constructive--I got caught on a few things by this person and I had to agree with he or she.  I think what what helped breed some of the acrimony was this critiquer's opinion of the expertise of certain singers on the site (and not all of them--based on their submission only as memory serves me--were as amazing or as jaw-dropplingly great as X's rave review would indicate--this alone was a bit perplexing and gave one pause--in some cases, REALLY great pause, just trust me on this.  "X" had a performance rating (if I remember correctly) of "9.5" so we've heard this individual at some point.

Ummmm, I guess I just think a man is a bit more "manly" when he's not afraid to try things, and push his limit. Now, on the other hand, my husband used to be a terribly fast driver. He couldn't stand the guy in front of us going 5 MPH slower than he wanted to go, and still to this day... he's pretty extreme when he's offroading. No trail?- No problem- He'll make one:)
But, on freeways & such, he used to drive me nuts. I'd sometimes threaten to open my door and bail if he didn't slow down... I've been known to yank a stick into nuetral while he's driving too fast... just to get my point across. Now, offroad doesn't bug me... on the track, I love it... burning out, having a loud car/truck, that's cool

Storm chasing? I think, in ways, that would be fun. I imagine you'd forget the fear of driving fast & recklessly because of the bigger threat of a Tornado coming your way... and you'd have a huge adrenalin rush to boot.



It's now engraved in my memory. Next time I'm asked, I'll deny to my death that I have any knowledge that you've EVER driven over the speed limit.  :D
(just... you do the same for me... remember the line "No, officer, I swear it wasn't Charmin who left all the ruts in that muddy field, it was a different color Bronco) hahaha



Ooh, ya see... older models don't have those. Plus, the older model 4x4's were built better for off roading. For one, they have more clearance (stock, i mean) ... and the springs were tougher. Some of the new trucks, blech, I'd be scared to get them in over 2 inches of mud for fear of getting stuck. Surely there's a way to bypass those governors though?

I better quit talking trucks with ya, people are gonna start thinking I'm like... a tomboy or something:) Lmao

I enjoy your stories. You should write a book on "the memoirs of a storm chaser"... it would provide good reading, I would think. I'd buy it.



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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

That's where he definately lost standing with people, it became apparent that he is just a buddy of certain people here. People like that are annoying. At first, I thought his comments honest and refreshing, then he changed colors. (as most men seem to do anyhow, eventually)  (just stating a fact)





Michael, I'm not 100% positive, but I believe that rating you see on their profile is an average of what they give others, NOT a reflection of what they themselves get ranked at... I'm pretty sure of it.

(but I've been known to be wrong... a time or two anyhow) haha

.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Nah... it actually depends on who's pointing a finger at me. If someone who annoys me gives me a "you're wrong"... I'll deny it till the cows come home:)

In this case, I admitted it first, so all is well:) And btw, I think I'm right anyhow. haha..

Hiya Vicki.  :wave:

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

*blech*

*puke*

*pa-touie*

Vicki, I am most certainly not sweet.  I'm more the sour variety, though I've been told I'm a bit spicy too. But never ever sweet.... haha

I'm doing good. I'm going shopping, need some new jeans... mine are getting kinda ragged, and I don't think my job wants me showing up with holes worn in the arse of my pants as well as in the knees:)  :whistle:

Though I HATE trying on clothes. (nah, I guess I like it, but that makes me sound awfully girlie, doesn't it?) Lmao

.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

I read "Listener X" for the first time in SS last night.  Since it's NEVER up to me to offer opinions on other members that Critique or their Critiquing style; I *can* say I think it's great somebody dares to Critique in the showcase. This *IS* what many of us want to see ! The ONLY concern I see is that some feel "Listener X" is somebody else they know who has changed SN's, or added an alias, and those posting would like listener X to be more open about their own identity. They would like to know if and why listener X changed names to do what they are currently doing. I can understand this too... When I Critique (although scary and at risk of rejection during the process) My name and all else you know about me is behind that Critique.. You know who I am,  I'm not hiding to do it.  I think members would like LIstener X to shed the costume, and be "up front" with who they are.. Otherwise they wonder the reason listener X is only being semi-honest. or what actual motive this person has.  I realize that the motive may likely be to help Critique exist within the showcase,  and assuming such, this is good, BUT, I too would wonder if this was an individual I've known for years under a different name.  Many suspect they know listener X, and would like to know who the individual is.  They seem to be able to handle Critique, but would like to know why Listener X has only appeared to Critique in the showcase and do nothing more within the site. That appears to be current concern only.  Not Critique itself. Individuals may wish to know just how much objectivity is going into "THEM" being the individuals that are getting critiqued, depending on who listener X might be, was, etc.

Assuming listener X is brand new as a member, shouldn't listener X have introduced themselves to the site perhaps, and also spoken outside of the showcase so members can know SOMETHING about the person Critiquing them, who the individual is, and what their background may be.  I do find listener X's intent to be well meant however, and don't wish to underestimate the fact that I feel it is great that others dare to critique in the showcase. This is what many in the showcase wish to happen !!  I also read one or two stating they'd be more receptive if Listener X prefaced certain Critiques with "I feel", or "In my opinion". WHile many feel that opinion offered "goes without saying", at times it IS a good thing for those critiquing to add..Especially if those at the receiving end of the process don't know the person or anything else about the Critiquing party. It would be nice if Critique was so opening accepted that few doubted Listener X's motives... I suppose this isn't the case however within the showcase.  Critique isn't something frequently offered so those receiving a Critique or something resembling Critique wonder what's up.

Despite who you may or may not be Listener X... Thanks for offering Critique to the Singers Showcase. It's never easy.

Addition:  Some apparently don't want listener X Critiquing them,  they made it quite evident Listener X should backoff regardless of whether the individual has submitted material in Critique or not,  a few individuals have made it clear they don't want a completely anonymous individual critiquing them, it raises question as to crediblilty. That aside, a person must never appear *overly* zealous to Critique people, it raises the question as to intent. Aside from that, Critique should always be welcome from peers when you submit within the Critique category. People have a right to request an anonymous individual not Critique them if they are concerned motive is questionable. Once we are told "back off", to continue to Critique is considered impinging ones opinion.

All this aside,  I have an idea of who listener X may be, and he's OK with most of us  LOL .  Of course I might be WAY off here.  OK rather than play guessing games, I'll put my money where my mouth is and not feed into mystique.. COULD Listener X be Steve or "XX" or our old buddy "Crankitupprod" ?  :shock:   If I'm incorrect, I'll give up my "Psycho hotline", and stick to my day job  (posting in here)

This is just a guess, so if I'm wrong,  sorry Steve
JMO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Addition:  Some apparently don't want listener X Critiquing them,  they made it quite evident Listener X should backoff regardless of whether the individual has submitted material in Critique or not,  a few individuals have made it clear they don't want a completely anonymous individual critiquing them, it raises question as to crediblilty. That aside, a person must never appear *overly* zealous to Critique people, it raises the question as to intent. Aside from that, Critique should always be welcome from peers when you submit within the Critique category. People have a right to request an anonymous individual not Critique them if they are concerned motive is questionable. Once we are told "back off", to continue to Critique is considered impinging ones opinion.


JMO[/quote]

In short, if the critiquer wishes to remain secret, it can add more ambivalence to the member being critqued.. in other words how can you trust the opinion of someone who isn't being upfrony with his/her own identity..

For all we know Listener X could be an inmate in a pententiary with internet access..

Exactly Joyce. The other factor is too, that EVEN if we respect the ability of the person giving us critique (and even if we DON'T know who the person is giving us the critique), it is up to one to decide which suggestions you feel have real merit to perhaps brush up on.  As a vocal student, I've learned there are numerous ways one can deliver a lyric or a note; the teacher may suggest something but you may still wish to do it YOUR way.  

If you are pitchy and all over the place, it's up to the singer to take the advice given and work with it or throw it out.  If you want to remain singing pitchy and all over the place, let it be!  If you think the approach you took on a song was the right one and your critiquer believes it should have been in a different style, use your own judgment to figure out what you feel, artistically, is the better approach.

There is a popular singer from last year's American Idol. I have a feeling she received top flight vocal training from the cradle and sings completely "by the book".  She is also instantly forgettable because she's "too" perfect, with no particular personal style to set her apart from numerous other young female singers out there.

Nah,  It's not Johnny Cash, and a few others who did time, or ARE doing time I'd LOVE Critiques from to be honest.  Alot of talent is in the slammer unfortuneately..Passionate dudes these artists !!.. .


Also listener X has a rating of 9.7.  UNLESS this individual carried over his/her rank they HAD to have submitted to Singer's Showcase, how the rank was carried over I don't know.  9.7 ISN'T rank given,  you can not rank others UNLESS you've submitted to the Showcase.  IOW, while I can Critique, I can't rank you (not that I'd want to),  I've never submitted to the showcase,  so this is likely somebody who salvaged their past rank of 9.7 under their prior name which MIGHT be another clue.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

In short, if the critiquer wishes to remain secret, it can add more ambivalence to the member being critqued.. in other words how can you trust the opinion of someone who isn't being upfrony with his/her own identity..

For all we know Listener X could be an inmate in a pententiary with internet access..[/quote]

Great point Joyce.  :yes:

If Critique is ever going to be taken serious by me....The person doing the Critique must be Qualified and my definition of Qualified means....Professional Vocal Coach who teaches Vocal Training to Professional singers, Must have the degree's and reputation to back up there Critique...Plus they must be able to give examples...meaning they must have the ability to show examples using there own Voice...."If you cannot sing yourself!!! Then you cannot expect anyone else to take you serious"!!!!!

I don't care what anyone says.....If you cannot rebuild an engine then how can you be a great teacher on how to rebuild engine's......SAME FOR VOCAL LESSONS!!!

If you can't do it then how can you teach it!!!!!!  To think that one can teach what they cannot do themselves is like the blind trying to teach the blind how to see with there eye's!!!!

I will respect anyone who has the degree, who also has the ability themselves so that by there own talent and knowledge they can teach someone else how to sing properly and also to hear properly.....Meaning if you cannot hear perfect pitch then it will be hard to sing perfect pitch!!!!!

I will never take the Critique part of this site serious because people who are truly Qualified will not take the time to do this for free, unless they are retired and simply have a huge desire to help others. But to ask someone to do this for free who is Qualified!!! ....Is something that I myself would never have the nerve to even ask!! Because it is time consuming and a lot of work, and to ask someone to do it and be serious and professional about it and then on top of that to ask that they do it for free is simply silly..."IMHO"

But if you find someone who has the above Qualifications and they are willing to do it for free then have at it and enjoy!!!

Elvis Presley was ask once if he ever learned anything from a Critique!!  And his answer was NO!!!!!

Then he was ask what he thought of Critique's....And he said... I don't!!!

Elvis Presley as we all know went on to be very Rich and famous and all the negative things ever said by Critique's was a waste of time.

Learning how to sing properly by a trained Vocal Coach is one thing!!!

Taking Critique from Critique's is another!!

Vocal lessons from a Pro Vocal Coach serves a purpose!!!

Listening to a Critique may or may not help....If the Critique is being given by that Pro Vocal coach then yes it will serve a purpose and be helpful.

What Qualifies you as a Pro Vocal Coach???  
Answer.....you have your degree, and reputation built up and are known for working with Professional artist such as Amy Grant,Alan Jackson,Kenny Chesney...for example sake to name a few....Show where you have records that your Vocal lessons helped some Big artist become better and show where you took beginners and turned them into pro vocalist!!!!

But for those who want to take Critique from people who are just wannabe know it all's who get off on making others think they know more than they actually do, and who get more joy out of cutting down others while being biased towards there friends or whatever.....Then whatever floats your boat go for it!!!

As for me I will only take Critique from a Vocal Coach who is the best of the best!!

But that's just my  :2cents:

On the internet IMHO this will suffice.  Other aspects aren't important to me because for all I know ALL are pros, OR none are even singing in their submissions,  we make assumptions in certain venues... A person can tell you they are Andy Williams or Glen Campbell but it'll be tough to prove or disprove factually either way assuming they are male and sound remotely like him. In accordance to what you are saying though Neo, or following this same logic, HOW can Critique exist at all in an environment such as this ?  How many pro singers would spend time Critiquing in such an environment to begin with (over the internet) AND be able to make money doing this ? When critiquing a performer on singing ability you first must strip away recording electronics, but also watch the person to really accurately Critique.. Not here thru this grapevine of computer to recording gismo to computer to lousy speakers, etc...

 As you say however few would invest such time UNLESS of course they are currently stuck at home because they are..

1)  Changing life-style and realize as perhaps "stay at home parents now" music isn't lucrative and it was time to settle down. They MIGHT have relocated to a rural area, A LOT of talent lives out in places where for now, this is their best link to multiple artists...  In lieu of these facts, I WOULD in fact listen VERY carefully to Advice/Opinion/comments of others... EVEN if they do not sing (or play my instrument) BUT have a decent feel for music because truth is,  SOME decent sports instructors can no longer participate BUT they have the knowledge, similarly some artists can't participate in such a life-style anylonger however have talent and ability..


thing is Jesse:

2)  Listen to some of the talent in here.  THERE are many who qualify AS pro-singers.  You mean to tell me you wouldn't respect what some of these individuals wish to offer you assuming you trust it is in fact them singing ?

3)  People get older can no longer "do", can no longer "teach" but CAN offer sage and listen with accuracy as well as present themselves articulately.

4) Some people are sick physically, others perhaps mentally ill....BUT this doesn't detract from ability to perceive and interact in artistic settings. It doesn't take a singer "God" to help others sing.  Recitals work this very way,  students critiquing and sharing with other students.. They are actually the ones most currently "honed in" on things one-another display, often more-so than one instructor..Those that Critique and judge Olympic level activities of course aren't Olympic athletes currently..NOR have some of these people ever participated in all activities they are deemed qualified to "judge",  They do however need to remain impartial, and have a better than average ability to interpret what is going on. Not all refs fight or have fought prolevel, some that did weren't that good... Some can teach, understand, arrange, have conducted orchestras as a stand-in,  have started college Glee-clubs but we know we can't sing well.. At least we have a good enough ear to know we aren't good .  We still know the theory involved to help some that have less theoretical knowledge than ourselves and just sing by rote.

5) Many do feel as you do.  Assuming such, those feeling this way are ONLY incorrect IF they submit FOR Critique.  Otherwise they can feel as they please.  But to not want a critique from most people here (for reasons you mention) also means such a person submitting for Critique (here) would be asking for trouble, or wrong.

Critique really can't accurately exist in the arts this way, just certain limited aspects of what we perceive on our end..

Look at a piece of artwork,  two monitors will show different hues of a color.. different clarity,  different speaker types, and rooms provides differences in sound too... For accuracy in Critiquing BEING PRESENT is important IMHO

Like all over,  "take what's helpful, leave the rest",  people can support one-another in such an interactive venue,  It just goes back to "Critique" not being the best choice of terms for such a setting.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Thanks Steven  :handshake:

you do have some great points that I don't normally think about.  :yes:


I can't help but wonder about some people here....As you said....How do we know that it is them actually singing????

I myself believe that Billy & Milo are for real, and also...Deb,Joyce,Luly,Charmin,MissyGG,Vicki, and several others that I have come to know such as Donna, Foxe,Headstogether,Tony Tiber...etc.

But some that I do not know...I do wonder at times if that person is really singing, are they really that good all the time???  Some seem to be too perfect all the time, and I don't mean anything negative here....But I know for myself that I do some songs justice....but then others I don't sing very well but just have fun with.

One thing that I notice about someone who sounds too good to be true is this:

(1) Do they sound the same on every song? Perfect every time??

(2) Do they ever try any other genre?? or do they stick to the same old artist songs time and time again??

As for myself....I have the ability to change my Voice....Meaning If I sing a Country song by Alan Jackson....I can decently mimic Alan Jackson.

If I sing a Merle Haggard song....I can decently mimic Merle Haggard, or George Jones,Randy Travis,Toby Keith...etc

I can do this with several artist because I have trained my self how to adjust my vocals to fit the song and how to mimic others.   If for some reason I cannot....Then I will try to do it my way....and if my way sounds decent to me then I will record it....or if I can mimic the original artist decently then I will record it.

If I cannot do a decent mimic or do it my way and make it sound ok to my ears then I will simply not record that song and will move on to another song.

Some people here sound too good to be true....So I can't help but wonder at times if that person is really singing or faking by posting an original or modified original???

If they are truly singing...Then I want to hear them try another type song or should I say a more up to date song, or hear them try a rock song, or country song or some type of variety...or change the words to the song...etc.

Then if they try this other type genre....Do they still sound like them self?? or can they change there voice to try and mimic this new genre???

Can they sing that Rat pack song and change the words entirely to prove that they are truly as great as the original artist?? ...for example sake!!

As for myself I do ok on some songs, other songs are so bad I would never record them much less post them.

Rock is my favorite, but I sing Country Better...and Rock I simply play with because It is not in my comfort zone...So I have fun with it.

Some have said at times that I sounded too much like the original artist, Some think that because I can change my voice that I am faking it.

I do agree with you Steven about some here sounding like Pro's....No doubt they really do or I could say yeah they are Pro's.

I don't consider myself a Pro because I sing for fun and do not take it serious and I know I would never make money at it even though I do ok on most songs that I record.

Karaoke for me is for fun because I don't think I can make living at singing.

Other people here can and do make a living at singing....If anyone can help another improve then that is wonderful.

But for me....I just wanted to have fun and those who went around revenge ranking and Giving harsh unhelpful Critique took the fun out of it for me.

So now I no longer enjoy karaoke because I cannot sing for fun...Because now I feel that every song I post must be absolutely perfect.... or someone is going to come and call those who enjoy listening to me meaningless fluffers.

I guess that's where I am coming from and why I feel the way I do.

Some want and need real help....But In the past it never seemed to be helpful, it seemed more like a contest or bashing contest against those who for what ever reason were more popular...be it talent or social friendships???

All I know is that I no longer have the desire to do something that I once loved!!! all for the sake of Critique & Critique's.

Beats me...

Jesse.  I just do ONE very important thing when I try to help another person in a music related area, and that's admit my limitations to THEM,  to ALL reading what I type, but MOST importantly, to myself !

While I have excellent developed pitch "relative pitch" and have tuned many pianos, what *I* hear when I play back my singing voice is somebody who is disgustingly off pitch, sounds like an Alfalfa/Kermit hybrid, and doesn't have as good an ear as veteran or even intermediate vocalists..  So as I've stated to Jian, and others "I am limited",  I can't and don't sing in public out've respect for public decency.. But I've backed up professional vocalists off and on,ood behind them in bands needing to follow them VERY closely for over 35 years (off and on), opened and worked session with a few well known names ( as a non-singing musician), but I still acknowledge to all that my singing could knock a planet off it's orbit, and if it's a seasoned singer and NOT a singer accompanist they wish to hear from, I have no place commenting.. I suppose what I've learned, although I still don't understand how this works is that while my lame attempts singing embarass me to no end, AND even instills doubt in me as to whether I can be a half-decent musician, it's been explained to me MANY times that the overall phenomenon of people hearing themselves sing, in addition to our vocal chords being VERY different and unlike ANY external musical instrument we may play and hear ourselves play, I've had to always remain sensitive to intricate areas and nuances of those I've accompanied.. (Some that play instruments often have a tough time singing for some reason, sometimes it's just that they weren't gifted with vocal chords that suffice for styles they like), also, Those that sing very well might similarly have a tough time working tempo on a rhythm instrument too... Different parts of the brain at work..BUT, they can hear areas that might be off when their lead guitarist get's stuck...  All sensitive in areas of aesthetics can help one-another to varying degrees.

Interesting things you learn when you study the psychology of the performing arts... MANY HATE their own performances too, and CAN'T watch themselves when acting, or tolerate hearing their performances musically.  So, as a person who's studied music since before I could speak, took orchestral level conducting classes later on, piano tuning courses, has written and co-written glee-club arrangements, arranged and directed vocal groups, filled in for Baritone, 2nd Tenor, and falsetto voicings, I acknowledge I suck,  and am not a "proud" person when around vocalists, BUT attempt to remain humble, and pay respect to those that can do what I can't...and admit to my limitations ALWAYS, THAT is what's respected by some, NOT misrepresenting muself.. I try to laugh harder at myself than those that have to hear me when I attempt to "crack one loose" (sing that is).. This way, People aren't offended by what would otherwise come across as a possible "know-it-all", AND I also try never to go where I'm not wanted (Except for the tech room  LOL ) BUT,  I'm always willing to learn new things from WHERE-EVER they generate from...  I hold those that can sing in HIGHEST regard in terms of musicianship, and ability, and consider ALL hear singing "musicians", not just Karaoke folk..... So I try to assist and work together with them even when commenting, nobody here in my eyes is lesser of a musician or artist than anybody else, people just have different levels of exposure, and ability in different areas.  To me Critique IS NEVER looking down... It's paying ultimate respect IMHO...  AND similarly I expect some to disagree with me, AND tell me so I too can learn (or relearn)... It's never a factual process... BUT, in order for peers to respect somebody, and view them as being "on the level" such individuals must be smart enough to know what they DO NOT know  and being willing to admit such limitations !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Jesse, THIS right here is the VERY reason Critiquing a persons natural singing ability CAN be so tough in such a forum.. I can say to this

"No,  they can't be that good all the time".. that would be very unlikely, and not a reasonable expectation either.

But I expect they shouldn't be because as I've stated, Ideally a person should submit only their best efforts for all to hear when given such an oppt.. With electronics, and recording techniques some can compensate for certain areas that in real you might be able to tell based upon watching them are pretty tough, and strained or just insecure areas.. I would suspect some just damn talented folk, but MOST should never be expected to be as good as what we hear recorded MOST of the time, especially during first takes, and in real.  So in a sense we are critiquing something often worked on and tweaked, but not their raw ability...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I appreciate what you've said here Steven, It has truly helped me to understand all this Critique stuff much better.  I guess when someone like you thinking the way you do, and in true effort to help others...That makes sense!!!!

I just got a bad impression of the whole Critique thing from back over two years ago when someone came along trying to be like Simon from AI.  It freaked me out so bad that some of my friends left due to the fussing and all about all this that it really took its toll on me.  I wasn't actually being picked on that much, it was more so the friends I had made here back then and when they left because they couldn't deal with it, then I missed the enjoyment of being able to listen to them.  

I saw how many were treated so badly that they too gave up before they even had a chance to practice and learn how to get better, and I guess that is what made me so sour about the whole thing.

I truly do appreciate all you have said & shared here because now maybe that I understand the true need for helping each other here...I can get over this fear of it being the same ol' mess it once was over two years ago.

I know how much that I am my own worst Critique....So I bet you are not as bad as you say you are....All I can do is take your word for it because I know I will never get to hear you for myself.

Or maybe the truth is.....I am much worse than I had thought!!

anyway..Thanks